Hello and welcome to this Author Interview here on Track of Words, where today I’m welcoming the brilliant Mike Shackle back to the site to talk about his epic, dark fantasy trilogy The Last War. With the third volume – Until the Last – having been released in 2022 the trilogy is now complete, so it seems like a good opportunity to chat to Mike and look back at the whole thing now that it’s done and dusted. If you haven’t started this great trilogy then this is the perfect introduction as Mike starts off by giving an overview of what to expect, before talking about his experience of writing and publishing these books over the last few crazy years.
There’s nothing particularly spoilerific here (I’ve clearly marked the one question which does contain mild spoilers), just loads of fascinating insight into the trilogy and the writing process, so I hope it’ll be of just as much interest whether you’re new to these books or you’ve read and loved them all! With Mike’s kind permission, I’ve also included a few examples of his own fantastic artwork that he’s created to depict some of the characters in this series, so make sure you check those images out too.
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Track of Words: For anyone not familiar, how would you describe The Last War and what do prospective readers need to know about it?
Mike Shackle: The original pitch for We Are the Dead and The Last War simply said “The bad guys have won. All the heroes are dead. What are you going to do?” And I think that neatly sums it all up.
We Are the Dead – book one in The Last War
It’s very much a tale of ordinary people caught up in events that no sane person would want to be involved in, and doing their best to not just survive but win their freedom from an evil invader.
It’s grim and dark and bloody but that’s what war is. I think it’s easy in fantasy books to glorify the battles — they are exciting to read after all — but I wanted everything to feel real. I wanted readers to worry about getting too attached to any one character because they might well die on the very next page.
But there is a big vein of hope that runs through all the books, weaving its way between the magic, monsters and mayhem. Because hope is all we have to keep us going on the darkest of days.
ToW: Looking back at the finished trilogy – how do you feel now that the books are all out there in the wild?
MS: It’s one big bag of emotions really. I’m proud that I got it done and the reaction to the story has been overwhelmingly positive. I was a bit exhausted at the effort that was involved — each book definitely got harder to write than the previous one but now that’s thankfully worn off. I also still have an element of disbelief that the books even exist and they were published by Gollancz (literally a dream come true). There’s plenty of wonder too that all 600,000 words came out of my brain! And finally, there’s a sense of sadness too because I lived with these characters for about six years from start to finish and I miss spending time with them.
ToW: When you first started writing this trilogy, did you have any particular goals, or anything specific that you wanted prospective readers to get out of these books?
MS: When I started writing We Are the Dead I just wanted to write the best story that I could. It felt very different to the previous books I’d written — special even — and I had hopes that this would be the tale that secured me an agent and a book deal. But that was all. After it was sold, there was new pressure to make each book better than the previous one, to make each book matter on their own as well as part of the bigger trilogy. Hopefully, I succeeded at that.
As for what I wanted readers to get from the books? Just some excitement, thrills, dread, heart-break, fun and escapism. I worked hard at making it a page-turner with plenty of pace and it was good to see people staying up late to see what happened next.
A Fool’s Hope – book two in The Last War
ToW: We Are the Dead came out in 2019, then A Fool’s Hope was released in 2020 mid-pandemic, and Until the Last landed in 2022. How did you find working on and releasing this trilogy over the course of the last few crazy years? I imagine it wasn’t quite what you had anticipated…
MS: Eeek. The pandemic was awful on every level so it feels bad moaning about how it affected my books but yeah, it screwed things up quite a bit.
I actually had to cancel a launch party for We Are the Dead that I had arranged here in my home town of Vancouver because the country had shut down the week before the book came out. And how do you promote a book called We Are the Dead during the early days of the pandemic?
A Fool’s Hope came out that December when no book shops were open, no one could get together and life was generally just miserable. I’m not sure anyone wanted to read anything remotely grimdark at that point or cared too much about what books were coming out. All in all, it was very disheartening to see something that I worked so hard on just kind of stumble out into the world.
I was also in the process of writing book 3 as the world locked down and that became a struggle in itself. It was hard to go to a very dark world when the real one was just as frightening. I ended up writing and drawing a picture book for my daughter about a young girl trying to be brave instead because I needed something warm and funny to concentrate on.
Somehow all the usual, bad, life stuff happened at the same time, from family members being involved in near fatal car crashes, someone close to me was diagnosed with cancer and given months to live and so on. It seemed relentless. Even when I eventually caught Covid, I ended up coughing blood up over the bathroom floor (and I’ve seen enough movies to know that’s never a good sign). Luckily I recovered but each horrid experience left me just a little bit more battered and bruised.
Gollancz were great as deadlines got moved around. Slowly but surely, each day I carved out more and more of the book and, when the world settled into the new normal a bit more, I began to make good progress. And I certainly celebrated when it was done.
But yeah, writing Until the Last was so, so, so tough.
Until the Last – book three in The Last War
ToW: I’ve always been interested in how authors plan trilogies, working towards a single cohesive story told across three books. Could you talk us through some of your process for planning these books, ensuring each volume told its own complete story while also maintaining an overall arc for the trilogy?
NOTE: this answer contains mild spoilers
MS: I’m a terrible planner even though I spend ages planning. However, I blame a lot of that on my characters being so bloody minded and doing their own thing.
With that caveat, I did plan the journeys that each character goes on during the first book to start with and then, once the series was sold, I looked at how they would then progress over the trilogy. I was concerned with the emotional changes each of the main characters would go through rather than the nitty gritty details of events as that’s what interests me most as a reader.
In book 1 for instance, Tinnstra transforms from a coward to a warrior, then in book 2 from a hero to a mother, before finally becoming a monster in book 3.
She grew up believing she wasn’t good enough and that insecurity is behind so many of the decisions she makes throughout the series, no matter how powerful she gets.
By the end, there’s very little difference between her and the bad guys. I even had her using their sayings on occasion to hammer that point home. However, I don’t believe anyone can go through the hell she endures and emerge unscathed, either physically or emotionally. Her heart is always in the right place and she sacrifices everything for the people she loves but, in reality, her choices on how to do that are always terrible. She then doubles down on every bad bet she makes because, for her, there is no going back. There is only victory or death.
Also, I find that no matter how much I plan stuff, things change in the writing. With both books 2 and 3, I scrapped about 70,000 words with each one as it just felt like certain things weren’t working. For instance, at the end of Book 1, I originally had Dren leaving with Tinnstra to go to Meigore. Book 2 then started with him not knowing what to do with himself in a foreign town and, to be honest, it was all a bit boring. It also left everyone back in Kiyosun a bit lost. I was really lucky that We Are the Dead hadn’t gone to print yet when I realized it wasn’t working and Gollancz let me put Dren back on the rowing boat to return to Kiyosun and leave Tinnstra and Zorique to face their own horrors alone.
Then there are the magic moments. A major character returned in book 2 even though I had no idea he was going to appear until Tinnstra turned a corner and bumped into him; a book review mentioned a throwaway character from We Are the Dead who then became a massive part of Until the Last; and dear old Captain Ralasis only had a walk-on role in A Fool’s Hope but he demanded to become a main point of view character and he quickly became a favourite.
As Mike Tyson said, “Everyone has a plan until they get punched in the face.” Writing’s a bit like that for me.
Mike’s amazing artwork of Tinnstra – click the image to see it in full
ToW: I love that you create your own artwork for your books, illustrating characters and scenes from the stories. Do you do that purely for the joy of it, or does that additional artistic outlet inform some of your writing as well?
MS: It’s definitely something I do for fun and a great way to relax. When I draw, it feels like I’m switching my brain off which is wonderful. However, I do use it to help me design characters or to get a feel for a world.
It’s also useful when new story/book ideas crop up while I’m still writing something else. It allows me to play with the new idea without derailing the current project (if that makes sense).
All of the artwork you see here is from a free art booklet available with Until the Last when ordered from The Broken Binding (while stocks last, presumably) – click on the images below to see them in full. – ToW
ToW: Are you planning further stories in this setting, or is this now done and dusted?
Never say never but for now, everything’s done and dusted in this world — and a good number of the characters are dead!
ToW: Now that The Last War is finished, is there anything you can tell us about what you’re working on now or next?
I’ve been helping my ‘good friend’, Mike Morris, with a few tales. There’s three books in the Cursed Sword saga so far and some more to come in the Jack Frey series early next year. If The Last War is a grand epic, then these adventures are like settling down to watch an hour’s great TV. Just pure fun and escapism.
I’m also in the process of finishing off a detective novel but I’m not sure what I’ll do with that. It’s set in modern London with no magic or swords or anything like that. It’s been fun writing something so very different from anything I’ve done in the past and a real busman’s holiday from fantasy.
Once that’s done, I’m cracking on with a new big epic fantasy. All I can tell you about that is there will be lots of swords, magic and mayhem. Maybe a few monsters too. Maybe the odd orc. It’ll definitely be less grimdark in tone, with heroes to root for and villains to hate.
ToW: Finally, if you could live in any of the locations you’ve explored in this trilogy, where would you choose and why (let’s assume in peacetime!)?
Hmmm. I’m not sure I’d want to live anywhere I invented. They’re all pretty miserable places! I think I might enjoy a night out with Captain Ralasis in Lyso though and definitely in peace time. I would be absolutely useless if the war was going on.
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Originally from London, Mike Shackle has called Hong Kong, Singapore, Beijing, New York and Dubai his home over the years before settling down with his family in Vancouver. In that time, he’s sold washing machines, cooked for royalty, designed a few logos, and made a lot of ads. Ideally, he’s happiest day dreaming over a cup of tea.
For more information check out Mike’s website or follow him on Twitter or on Instagram.
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Thanks so much to Mike for taking the time to chat to me for this interview as part of the 2022 Track of Words Advent Calendar, and for giving these great answers! I hope you enjoyed reading this interview – if you haven’t already, I can strongly recommend picking up We Are the Dead. I don’t think you’ll be disappointed!
Check out my review of We Are the Dead and my interview with Mike about A Fool’s Hope
Until the Last is out now from Gollancz – check out the links below to order your copy:
*If you buy anything using one of these links, I will receive a small affiliate commission – see here for more details.
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